Meme Engine "randomness"

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What I've been thinking about...

paradoxes

roseyellowred:

“The world of science lives fairly comfortably with paradox.  We know that light is a wave, and also that light is a particle.  The discoveries made in the infinitely small world of particle physics indicate randomness and chance, and I do not find it any more difficult to live with the paradox of a universe with randomness and chance and a universe of pattern and purpose than I do with light as a wave and light as a particle.  Living with contradiction is nothing new to the human being.”

—Madeline L’Engle

As I'm sure you're aware, I believe the concept of free will is inherently flawed, in that the concept itself is contradictory. My perspective being that all things must be either determined or not determined, or a combination of the two. Things that are not determined must be random (and therefore not willful). You say that it may be possible for something to be neither determined nor random, but how? Surely the brain is complex, but from what kind of network could free will possibly emerge?

I’ve had this question on the backburner for a week or so, but it’s too good not to answer, even if some time has passed.

To thievishmonkey: to answer you specifically, I think the biggest gap between my thinking and yours is likely my focus on different levels of complexity, and how some concepts don’t reduce well to lower levels, and how we should conclude that causes for some events can only be meaningfully answered at higher levels.  I think that heat is a great example of this, and I wrote a post on the topic (it was maybe my 4th or 5th post after starting this blog, so it may be a little raw, but it should make the point).  Of course, many emotions and psychological states are also good examples of irreducibles.

To everybody: To answer the question then… I’m not sure I want to defend free will.  It’s hard to define, I think much more so than determinism.  I definitely don’t believe in anything that has a one-way relationship with the causal web.  That is, something which can be a cause, but is not subject to causes.

However, I think I could make an argument for something being neither determined nor random.  I recently wrote that I feel I can reject the kind of absolute determinism that means perfect prediction of the future (see this post), but even with a less strict definition, I think determinism can be escaped.

My candidates for non-determinism are the aforementioned events that do not reduce well to lower levels of complexity.  Events for which no cause at a lower level is meaningful.  For example, if I am surprised by the bark of a dog, neither my surprise, not it’s cause are very well described at lower levels.  How is surprise described in terms of neural patterns?  And if you zoom in close to observe the sound waves, the dog’s bark may actually be hard to distinguish from the background noise, let alone it’s effect on my eardrums, and on into the neural encoding, etc.  The data may be given en masse, but the meaningful causes are at the human level.

My suggestion is that in an event of this kind, if it’s possible for someone to know every human-level fact about me, but to still be uncertain what my reaction will be, then this reaction might be considered not determined.

If when I’m surprised by the dog bark, I am accompanied by my (fictional) sister, who has hardly left my side our entire lives, she may still not know if my reaction will be to freeze, to shout, to run, to gasp, etc.  This despite the fact that she could be said to know all human-level facts about me.  Had I myself been asked five minutes earlier whether I would freeze or gasp, I may not have been able to know, despite my complete access to my own history and psychology.

Thus, we have an act not predicted (determined) by it’s causes… at least the causes that count.

And the fact that I am talking about causes should give the hint that I also don’t believe these to be random acts.  If I gasp when the dog barks, and someone asks my why I gasped, the answer is not that it was random.  It had a cause, despite being unpredictable.

In the question, thievishmonkey suggested that “things that are not determined must be random.“  I would say that this claim needs defense.  Perhaps in the contexts we’re using, the word random needs more examination.  A random number between one and ten is easy to understand, but what is a random reaction to a dog’s bark?  Does it assign probabilities to a couple of possible reactions?  Must anything be possible for the result to be random?  For instance, should there be an infinitesimal chance of my turning bright blue in the reaction to the bark?  A chance that I’ll turn into a dog myself?  I’m exaggerating on purpose, but hopefully you take my meaning that random may not be well understood in this context.

I hope that answers the question and, if not, this is a debate I’d be glad to continue.


falsedilemmas:
To memeengine: When you say that we humans can “propagate quantum effects at the human level on purpose” what do you mean exactly?

The gist of the photo above is that Schrodinger’s Cat turns out to be a good example of what I’m talking about.  And just to soothe those who are already objecting, no, I’m not about to claim that quantum superposition exists at the macro level.
Schrodinger’s Cat is a famous (and cruel) thought experiment in which a cat is shut into a box along with a complicated device that may or may not release poisonous gas, thus killing the cat.  Inside the device is some radioactive substance which (over some given length of time) may or may not emit an alpha particle.  If a particle is emitted, a Geiger counter in the device will detect it and cause a hammer to smash a glass vial containing the poison gas.
Erwin Schrodinger suggested that before we open the box, we don’t know whether or not the cat is alive, and we could thus consider it to be in a superposition of living and dead states.  This is not reality of course, and Schrodinger certainly knew that - he merely wanted to explain the idea of quantum superposition (which happens at tiny scales) using everyday scale objects.  At quantum scales superposition is indeed real, and is not just a matter of “not knowing yet”.
Though it’s not required, his thought experiment contains a quantum element… decay of a radioactive substance is due to quantum tunnelling, and the timing of such radiation is one of the truly random things in our universe.  Falling dice seem random, but are actually under the sway of air resistance, gravity, etc, so their randomness is an illusion.  The same can be said of random number generators in computers, which often use math combined with the current exact time to generate numbers that seem random.
Quantum randomness is the real deal, meaning that even if we know every physical detail of the geiger counter and the radioactive substance, we will still be unsure if the cat will be killed or not while it is in the box.
This true randomness is what is relevant to my comment earlier.  Though we do not see quantum superposition in the cat, we do see a causal chain that starts at a truly random quantum event, and ends in a tragically macroscopic effect (the death, or not of the cat).  In this thought experiment, it can truly be said that the cat is neither determined to live or to die.  Its fate is truly random.
I say that this quantum randomness can be propagated to our level on purpose, because this example (and the one I used earlier) required humans to use our technology to observe a random event, and decide in advance to react to different options in different ways.  In the Schrodinger’s Cat experiment, the different reactions are built into the geiger counter, the hammer and the poison.
There is some doubt as to whether quantum randomness can “naturally” have effects on higher levels of complexity.  Though I don’t know the detail of why, I know that quantum superpositions are “delicate”, and tend to collapse into plain “this way or that way” facts in more (physically) complicated systems.  This is why I had to seek out an example to be sure that human level events could hinge on quantum-level randomness.

falsedilemmas:

To memeengine: When you say that we humans can “propagate quantum effects at the human level on purpose” what do you mean exactly?

The gist of the photo above is that Schrodinger’s Cat turns out to be a good example of what I’m talking about.  And just to soothe those who are already objecting, no, I’m not about to claim that quantum superposition exists at the macro level.

Schrodinger’s Cat is a famous (and cruel) thought experiment in which a cat is shut into a box along with a complicated device that may or may not release poisonous gas, thus killing the cat.  Inside the device is some radioactive substance which (over some given length of time) may or may not emit an alpha particle.  If a particle is emitted, a Geiger counter in the device will detect it and cause a hammer to smash a glass vial containing the poison gas.

Erwin Schrodinger suggested that before we open the box, we don’t know whether or not the cat is alive, and we could thus consider it to be in a superposition of living and dead states.  This is not reality of course, and Schrodinger certainly knew that - he merely wanted to explain the idea of quantum superposition (which happens at tiny scales) using everyday scale objects.  At quantum scales superposition is indeed real, and is not just a matter of “not knowing yet”.

Though it’s not required, his thought experiment contains a quantum element… decay of a radioactive substance is due to quantum tunnelling, and the timing of such radiation is one of the truly random things in our universe.  Falling dice seem random, but are actually under the sway of air resistance, gravity, etc, so their randomness is an illusion.  The same can be said of random number generators in computers, which often use math combined with the current exact time to generate numbers that seem random.

Quantum randomness is the real deal, meaning that even if we know every physical detail of the geiger counter and the radioactive substance, we will still be unsure if the cat will be killed or not while it is in the box.

This true randomness is what is relevant to my comment earlier.  Though we do not see quantum superposition in the cat, we do see a causal chain that starts at a truly random quantum event, and ends in a tragically macroscopic effect (the death, or not of the cat).  In this thought experiment, it can truly be said that the cat is neither determined to live or to die.  Its fate is truly random.

I say that this quantum randomness can be propagated to our level on purpose, because this example (and the one I used earlier) required humans to use our technology to observe a random event, and decide in advance to react to different options in different ways.  In the Schrodinger’s Cat experiment, the different reactions are built into the geiger counter, the hammer and the poison.

There is some doubt as to whether quantum randomness can “naturally” have effects on higher levels of complexity.  Though I don’t know the detail of why, I know that quantum superpositions are “delicate”, and tend to collapse into plain “this way or that way” facts in more (physically) complicated systems.  This is why I had to seek out an example to be sure that human level events could hinge on quantum-level randomness.

silentfrenzies:

One of the problems of applying quantum indeterminacy to explain free will is that the signaling between neuronal networks in the brain happens at a level much larger in scale than that observed at the subatomic particle level at which indeterminacy happens.  It’s like saying the individual grains of sand that make up an individual brick could influence the structure of a cathedral made out of millions of bricks, as well as the societies that spawn from such institutions.  More importantly, even if randomness at the quantum level somehow translated up to the molecular level of brain activation and the macro level of societies, then that would equally not be a satisfying account of what most of us experience as free will. […]

The pessimistic view of determinism is also unwarranted because we simply wouldn’t be able to comprehend the patterns of causality in any meaningful way.  Aside from very simple actions that we consider next, the complexity of the underlying processes that make up our mental lives is going to be one that proves impossible to predict with any degree of certainty—it might as well be random and undecided.  It’s like watching a soccer match.  We appreciate that the laws of [Newtonian] physics govern the movement of the players and ball, but that does not mean you can predict with any certainty how the moves in the game will play out.  At best, we may be able to get close to figuring out what will happen, but to use a term borrowed from engineering, there are simply too many degrees of freedom to make an accurate prediction of what the system will do.  The problem of too many degrees of freedom means that, every time you add another factor that can exert an influence on your decision-making, you change the predictability of a system.

Bruce Hood, The Self Illusion

(For example, the fact that you’re attempting to predict your next move is an additional factor that would influence your actual next move, etc.)

There are practical problems, but we philosphers don’t need to worry about those.  Just kidding!  But I did think of a way to propagate quantum effects up to our level, giving us a theoretical problem with determinism, as well as the practical prediction problem.

There are random quantum effects that humans can measure which happen after a “random” time interval (ex an electron emits a photon in a magnetic field).  To propogate this effect upward, one need only decide to bang on the table when the photon is detected.  Or eat soup for lunch if it takes under five minutes, and a salad otherwise.  We can propagate quantum effects at the human level on purpose.

Brian Greene
"Many Worlds"
Radiolab Season 1

This is the last in my series of excerpts from my current favorite episode of Radiolab.

A little background to this three minute clip: Radiolab host Robert Krulwich has been talking to physicist and author Brian Greene.  The topic: every moment of time, past present and future, already exists (hear this conversation here).  Robert complains that this means his future is already determined, with no free choice, and then Brian Greene brings up the Many Worlds Hypothesis.

Listen and enjoy, Robert Krulwich gives Brian Greene kind of a hard time, but he responds gracefully.  They also talk about the “chocolate universe”.

The idea of many worlds seems to crop up from a few different corners of science and philosophy.  Here it is offered as a way out of having your future be determined (even if it already exists).  There are many futures, the one you will experience is as yet unknown.

For me, the appeal of the many worlds hypothesis is that it lets us escape the randomness that seems to crop up in quantum physics.  Funny - Brian Greene uses many worlds to relieve the sense of determinism, while I use it to protect determinism from randomness.

In quantum physics, the probability fields that make up reality collapse when a measurement is made.  A measurement will tell us the particle is either here or there (or, if you like, the cat is either dead or alive).  Before the measurement, the particle was neither here nor there, and the cat neither dead nor alive.  I don’t mean we don’t know which, I mean the facts were not one way or the other.

The choice of here or there, dead or alive, is random, subject to the probability field.  Einstein always hated the idea that anything about reality could proceed randomely, which is why he is quoted as saying “God does not play dice”.  Though I don’t feel I can offer an authoritative opinion, my instincts are the same.  I don’t like the universe to be random.

Many worlds offers a way out.  All the possibilities are realized, only in different copies of the “many worlds”.  The particle is here in one world, but there in another.  The only randomness is “which of the worlds are we already in?” which I feel is somehow an acceptable randomness.

Of course, we still experience only one outcome, and may wonder why.  In fact, all of my copies in each of their worlds may wonder why they experience only one outcome.

Though it offers this relief to having randomness be a foundation of reality, I’m still not sure I can get behind the many worlds interpretation completely.  All of reality is made of probability fields, and the number of new worlds that would have to spin out from every particle each pico-second sort of boggles my mind.  I also have a nagging feeling that many pasts could be possible precursors to this present… but does the number of worlds increase or decrease with time?


“The Secrecy is Essential to the Freedom of the Agent…”

- Daniel Dennett
Awhile back, I posted an audio clip of Daniel Dennett talking about chess programs, and how it makes sense to say that one “could have” beat the other, even though they’re deterministic programs.
It was a ten minute clip taken out of the full podcast, which was one hour.  On listening again, I may have lost some of the clarity of the connection to the topic of Free Will in the interests of brevity.  Because I think there is a worthwhile point here, I’m going to take a stab at a written summary.
If you want to find out how chess programs, Secrecy, and Free Will are looped together into one super-meme, click on the read more link…
[[MORE]]
Free Will Means Something
If I had to guess, I’d say Dennett believes in physical Determinism.  Still, he speaks to justify and define Free Will for the full hour in this talk.  Whatever inconsistencies may exist, there are sentences that use the concept of Free Will that really mean something.  For example:
I’m more free than a person with bound hands and feet.
In Canada we’re free to criticize our politicians.
An epileptic becomes less free during a seizure.
Unless they’re being difficult (see picture below) anyone, including determinists, will admit that these sentences have meaning and are true.  In his talk, I think Dennett’s aim is to find the definition for a Free Will that is philosophical, but that also applies to common uses like those above.

This Heading “Could Be” Shorter
For Dennett, Free Will is tied up with the idea that something “could be” different than it actually is.  Even if I sit with my hands in my lap, I’m freer than I would be with bound hands, because I “could” make any gesture I like.
For a physical determinist, this is a tricky issue.  An argument could be made that the deterministic conditions leading to my choice to keep my hands still is just as much of a cage as a rope would be.  However, Dennett defines what “could be” means in a way that’s compatable with Determinism.
He says that every “could be” statement has an implicit list of mutable conditions.  For example, to say that I “could make any gesture” might really mean that I “could make any gesture in a hypothetical world where my thought process was different.”
We must not take this too far.  If *any* hypothetical world is allowed, then it would follow that absolutely anything “could be” true.  For example, “I could have leapt into the sky and flown to work today” is false, but if we allow hypothetical worlds where Gravity is different, where humans have wings, etc, we may be tempted to call it true.  So we must not allow *all* conditions to be mutable, only some.
How do we choose?  Which conditions should be mutable?  It seems there are an array of answers “right” enough to pass in everyday English.  However, Dennett suggests that conditions that are Secret are the ones we should allow to be mutable.
Secret Physical Conditions Should Be Mutable
For example, imagine that Tiger Woods and I both attempted to make a hole-in-one, and we both missed.
“I could have made that shot” I say.  My claim is false because I would have to consider a very different hypothetical world, in which non-secret conditions (like my being a uniformly unskilled golfer) are different.
“I could have made that shot” says Tiger.  His claim is true, because he only needs to consider hypothetical worlds where the eddies of wind, or the arrangement of the blades of grass is different, and these conditions are secrets to us as we swing our clubs.
Of course, every agent has many secret conditions right inside their own brains (secret to themselves even).  I suspect that this is what Dennett would say qualifies them as “agents”.
Chess
To drive his point home, Dennett explains how his definition of “could be” functions well even in clearly deterministic situations.  The deterministic situation he chooses is pitting two chess-playing computer programs against each other.  The audio of this part of the talk is available in this post.
To cover himself, Dennett allows the programs to use psuedo random number generators (which are also deterministic by the way).  He then suggests the two programs play 1000 games against each other.  He points out that if the random number generators are restarted from scratch, and 1000 more games are played, they will be the EXACT SAME GAMES as the first time.
Now, we start asking questions, like “Why did program A win game number 611?”  Or, assuming program A won the majority of the games, we can ask “Why did program A win more?”  Dennett astutely points out that the answer “because it was determined to win” is no answer at all.  The true answer, he says, should be something like “because program A is better designed.”
We must ask ourself if program B *could have* won those games.  The answer is yes if B wins in a set of “reasonable” hypothetical worlds.  Such as:
The random number generator(s) are in a different state.
B misses a really good move by only a small amount (ex if B checks 500 scenarios, but 502 were required).
A notices and makes a really good move by only a small amount (ex if A checks 500 scenarios and the 495th is the good move).
On the other hand, some hypothetical worlds are not allowed in the consideration of whether B could have won:
A or B have different algorithms.
The rules of chess are different.
The random number generator(s) manage to work in B’s favour every time.
The items in this list are evidently false, wheras changes like those in the first list would be secret.  Roughly speaking, saying truthfully whether or not these chess programs could have behaved differently (even though they are deterministic) is consistent with Dennett’s definition of “could have”.
The Conclusion in Bullets
All common references to Free Will rely on what “could be” true.
What “could be” true relies on varying some conditions and considering the resulting hypothetical worlds.
Choosing which conditions are allowed to vary is hard.
One mostly consistent choice is that Secret conditions may vary, but others may not.
This use of “could be” may even be applied to obviously deterministic situations, like chess programs, without contradiction.

“The Secrecy is Essential to the Freedom of the Agent…”

- Daniel Dennett

Awhile back, I posted an audio clip of Daniel Dennett talking about chess programs, and how it makes sense to say that one “could have” beat the other, even though they’re deterministic programs.

It was a ten minute clip taken out of the full podcast, which was one hour.  On listening again, I may have lost some of the clarity of the connection to the topic of Free Will in the interests of brevity.  Because I think there is a worthwhile point here, I’m going to take a stab at a written summary.

If you want to find out how chess programs, Secrecy, and Free Will are looped together into one super-meme, click on the read more link…

Read More

Determinism

This post really got my wheels turning, since (as some may know) I like this topic.  I’d recommend this blog to anyone who likes living philosophy; the moderator isn’t kidding, he’ll happily and respectfully debate and answer questions.

After you read, check out this post.  It contains a clip of Daniel Dennett talking about “free will worth having”, which seems to involve hypothetical worlds and/or secrecy.  Very interesting!  Even more, he applies his thoughts to computer chess playing programs!

thievishmonkey:

[To clarify, I’m not going to talk here about scientific determinism, the view that it’s possible to predict the future with knowledge of the present. As far as I understand, there is no knowledge we have access to that would allow this, especially in regard to quantum particles. I’m going to talk about philosophical determinism, the view that there is no free will.]

The view that there is no free will is much like atheism and nihilism, in that it is a lack of belief in some thing. However, determinism is a special case for two reasons, because it concerns a thing that supposedly exists within ourselves, and because the very idea of free will is self-defeating. For these reasons, a simple referral to the burden of proof would be insufficient to explain the rationality behind denying the existence of free will.

It is sometimes said that free will is an illusion, and if it is it’s a most effective one. We perceive having free will when we make any choice; we perceive within our own minds the ability to decide among various outcomes by whim. We believe that the choice we make is one of many possibilities, and that any of the other possibilities could have been chosen just as easily. Moreover, because this choice depends on our own whims, we believe that the choice we make is free. However, the experience of choosing is not in question; the will itself is not being denied, rather it is the freedom which the will is said to have that determinism denies. In other words, it is not doubted that a choice is being made by the agent, it is doubted that any other choice could have actually been made. There is a will, but it is not free.

It becomes easier to understand why there cannot be free will when one tries to form a concept of it.

First, imagine a non-free will: this will is subject to the influence of many external factors, including sensory information, emotions, critical analysis, etc., and there is no part of the will that is not caused by something else. This is the kind of will a determinist generally conceives of, one in which external factors determine the state of the will, and therefore determine the outcome of any choice. In this way, any choice that is made is merely the product of cause and effect.

In order to have a free will, at least some part of that will must not be determined by external factors. A will cannot be described as “free” if it is wholly constrained by external factors. So then a free will would have to exist either completely or partially beyond external influence. The critical question becomes, if part of the will is not caused by something external, how does that part exist, and what role does it play in determining choice?

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Daniel Dennett
"Practical and 'Theoretical' Free Will"
The Institute of Philosophy - 10 May 2012

Daniel Dennett contemplates Free Will.  In this 10 minute excerpt, he develops an example using computer chess programs to illustrate what we mean (and *could* mean and *should* mean) by Agency.

The full hourlong podcast is highly recommended as company during housework or repetitive tasks, and can be found on this site.